Majority of the interactions we have about catexploring are positive. People are happy to see us, they’re curious about how to train their cat & sometimes they’re just so excited to see a cat out and about. But there are those not so great moments. Like when we encounter an off leash dog whose owner may not be keen to leash their dog, or someone says a snide comment to us or when people don’t listen to our wishes when interacting with our cat while we’re out and about. On this episode we chat about all those not so great scenarios and what to say when they happen.

What we talk about

• What to do if a human catexplorer has asked a dog owner to leash a dog but they have refused.

• What to do when and off leash dog has approached you and is excited/aggressive

• Practising the terms to say when we are panicked

• What to say when people say that “what did you expect? You bought your cat out here”

• What to say if a dog (who loves cats) approaches your cat who does not like dogs.

• How to stay calm in scary situations

• What to say if people put their hand in your cat’s backpack or stroller, even when asked not to

• How to manage sneaky photos and snide comments from others while catexploring

• What to say when people say “you shouldn’t have a cat out here”

• What to say when people say “you’re being cruel to your cat”

• What to say when people say “Does that person have no friends”

• What to do when people are offended that you walk your cat or ask you to leave.

• What to say if you get asked “why don’t you get a dog like a normal person?”

• What to do if people approach you because your cat is being very vocal.

• What to do if people approach you while your cat is having a temper tantrum.

• How to respond to not so nice comments on social media.

How to leave a review

To find out how to leave a review see here: https://catexplorer.co/podcast-entries/how-to-leave-a-review-for-the-catexplorer-podcast

Catexplorer Facebook Group

Join the Catexplorer Facebook group here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/catexplorer.community/

Guest – Amanda Semenof, Mindful Resolution

Mindful Resolution

Overthinking Conflict Podcast

Twitter - @mindfulconres

Downloadable Catexplorer template to give to curious people

Review of the Episode

I was so excited to find this podcast!

☆☆☆☆☆

I have been adventuring with my cat since she was a kitten (which was 7 years ago) but just found this community last week. I absolutely love this podcast and how everyone advocates enrichment for their cat. I have always been “the crazy cat lady” walking my cat down the street in her stroller, or hiking her with her backpack. I’m so excited to hear about other likeminded people. As I’m listening in my car, I often find myself yelling “Yes!” out loud as someone stresses a point I’ve been saying for years, or someone else is going through an exploring related struggle that I thought was unique to me and my cat. I’m so excited I found this community, and look forward to many more episodes!

Music

Music for this episode was composed and performed by Kory McIntyre.

Cover art

The photo used for the cover art for Season 3 of Catexplorer Podcast is of @renske_aken & was taken by Sylvia van Heek.

Transcript

Please note - this an automatic transcript, and as such may not be very accurate.

Hasara Lay 0:00

Hi everyone, welcome to the cat explorer podcast. I'm Hasara words can't describe how impactful this podcast episode has been to me. I've learned so much just chatting to Amanda and I'm so excited for everyone to hear her advice. But before we jump in, we've got our review of the week, which is from Matthew became I hope I pronounced that correctly. I was so excited to find this podcast. I have been adventuring with my cat since she was a kitten, which was seven years ago, but I found this community last week. I absolutely love this podcast and how everyone advocates for enrichment of their cat. I have always been the crazy cat lady walking my cat down the street in a stroller or hiking with her in her backpack. I'm so excited to hear about other like minded people. As I'm listening in my car. I often find myself yelling Yes, out loud as someone stresses a point that I've been saying for years, or someone else is going through it and exploring related struggle that I thought was unique to me and my cat. I'm so excited. I found this community and I look forward to many more episodes. That says lovely thing to say thank you so much. We really do appreciate your reviews. And if you'd like to leave a review for the cat explorer podcast will leave a link in the show notes so that you can find out how to do that. Thank you. We've been working on this episode for more than a year. And that's not because I didn't want to create it. It's because we wanted to do it. Well. So many of you have reached out to me over the last year or so describing situations where you felt uncomfortable, frightened or upset due to responses from others while you've been cat exploring, or because you got cat exploring? Well, we all have our different ways of responding to the situations. And I've said what I do where I can I wanted to bring a conflict resolution expert onto the podcast to help us out. Turns out it's been a bit tricky to find one and I'm so grateful that Amanda has agreed to come and help us today. Amanda seminoff is a civil mediator, facilitator and conflict management consultant in new Westminister Canada. Not only does she have a certification in conflict resolution, which specializes in mediation. She also has a BA in economics and international relations Amanda also runs the business mindful resolution. Amanda also occurs the overthinking conflict podcast where she and her co hosts chat to people who have experiences dealing with different types of conflict ranging from indigenous law to trust building crossover and so much more. Amanda loves with sticky and seemingly unsolvable problems, so she's definitely the right person to help us. Thank you so much for joining us, Amanda. Thanks for inviting me. Hasara. I'm happy to be here. So I really want to start off this episode by saying most of the interactions our community have where people are really positive, they make us smile and so so happy that actually make my day. But there are those times when we have those difficult interactions. And that's really what we're going to be focusing on today. And what I was thinking, Amanda, is that I'll take you through some scenarios and I'm keen to hear how you think we can approach the scenario so that they just don't spiral downhill.

Amanda Semenoff 2:47

That sounds great. So I

Hasara Lay 2:48

suppose one of the biggest things that our community deals with is awfully dog so they're quite a concern because they can come charging to our cats and attack them and I understand that we all understand that many dogs Learners aren't prepared to see cats when they're out and about with humans and most members of our community actually stick to areas that have rules that require dogs to be unleashed. But many of us have encountered off leash dogs in these areas. And I know quite a few people actually what they do is they yell out, I have a cat, can you please leash your dog, but not all dog owners comply with this request, and a few different scenarios do happen, and I'd love to hear your suggestions on what people can do. So I'll present a few scenarios and we'll go from there. So the first one is the human cat explore has asked the dog owner to leash the dog, but the owner has refused. The dog hasn't come right up to the cat Explorer, but the cat scared and nervous of dogs. Do you have any suggestions on what to do in this scenario? Is that anything that we can say to the dog or no?

Amanda Semenoff 3:45

So I think we have a few different pieces that we have to think about. The first is, Am I safe? Is my cat safe? Is this an aggressive person and if that's the case, you really just want to remove yourself. So sometimes we're in a space where somebody can't hear us because they have their own stuff going on their emotional, maybe they have a mental health condition, there's lots of spaces in which somebody can be in public and confronting them isn't safe, right. And you get that sense a little bit where you might want to say something. But that might not be your your easiest best option. It's very different. If this is a place you go on a regular basis where you're hoping maybe to educate to make the space safer for you in general. And so the first my first question is, is my cat somewhere that they're safe. So once you have your cat somewhere that they're safe, then you don't have to be as anxious about your cat safety and that brings your anxiety level down a little bit. And then you can be a little bit more curious or a little bit calmer when addressing the dog owner because it really helps if the dog owner doesn't feel attacked, that sort of escalation. So I'm really afraid about my pet. The dog owners really worried for some reason about their own dog and now suddenly, tensions are really high. So I am a dog owner. And now my dog may not be allowed off leash many places because she cannot behave around other animals. But if I happen to be somewhere off leash, one of the things that would happen for me is I'd be really scared that my dog might have hurt somebody or some animal. And when that happens, often people become really defensive. Right? So that like, right now I'm safe, and then I'm going to explain to that person that, like, it's okay, right now we're okay, but right right now we're okay. And this isn't a safe place for your dog to be off leash. Now, potentially that dog has perfect recall. There are animals out there like that. Maybe it's a maybe it's a trained guide dog, and it just happens to be out for recreation instead of work and it does have really good voice recall. And so we want to be open to the concept that I might want them to leech their dog and their dog might be okay off leash. Right, maybe that's not the majority of dog owners. Maybe that's not any dogs we've ever met, but If we have that openness, then the chances of that interaction being as negative is smaller. And so when we come to an interaction of a bit of curiosity, maybe they've never seen a cat before, maybe they don't understand how scary This is for you as a cat owner, right? Maybe they don't want to be labeled as that bad dog owner and by having somebody say, you need to lease your dog. Right? Maybe they think their dog is really friendly, and it's fine. Right? Those are many different kinds of things that can be going through their head and we don't know where that dog owners that mean I have similar instances where my large dog that's not necessarily good with small dogs will have small off leash dogs run up, and it's the same thing your animal might be okay, mine is not. Right. My cat is not okay. Can you please your dog is a very different statement than I don't trust your dog. And in that, I have a cat. Can you lease your dog? That question? The next The next statement of something along the lines of my cat is not okay, can you please leave your dog that's taking the burden away from the behavior of their animal to the safety of your own animal. And that shift in psychology is really subtle, but actually very powerful. Because it is in no way blaming the behavior of their animal for the thing that you're asking them to do. Wow.

Hasara Lay 7:28

It's amazing how just changing some words really changes it up. And I really like what you're saying about we never really know what someone else is going through, like what's going through their head. So you're totally right, just showing a little bit of empathy and trying to see it from their perspective as well guys are really long way I really like that. So then the next scenario is that a dogs come running up to two cat explorers, and you've already acid or enter to leash the dog. But unfortunately, this hasn't happened. But the dog is so intent on the cat explorers that they're still running up to them and this time freak out a little bit because they're not sure if the dogs going to attack them. Is there a way that the human cat explores can convey this stress and need to help to the dog and to us, the dog and the dog?

Amanda Semenoff 8:12

So, I mean, I guess I have kind of one or two questions mostly because I'm not in the cat explore community. And generally, when a dog is running up with a cat explore put their body between the dog and their pet, their cat.

Hasara Lay 8:27

So what we recommend is that people put that cat in their safe spot, which is usually that backpack or that stroller and the backpacks usually on your back. So you can put your body in between the dog and the cat. You had the dog and the cat, but it also depends on the situation because some people actually prefer to hold their cats. And like you hold them in a way that you hide their face so that they don't see the dog. So then the dog would kind of see the cat if they save the cat. You're holding that cat there.

Amanda Semenoff 8:54

Mm hmm. So So once you're in that situation, it does actually feel very unsafe for you. You have a potential aggressive animal, you have your cat really close to your body and that dog is really close. And so just in many ways, just labeling what is happening for somebody can really help. And so what we want to do is we want to make sure that we are not making the dog owner feel really defensive because somebody whose dogs already Behaving Badly might have scared them might have scared yourself, maybe this is a behavior because we're not used to seeing cats in the world that their dog has never displayed before. So this is potentially a new scary behavior for the dog owner, as well as for the the cat. And so to block your body a little bit with your shoulders. If you're holding your cat right to make sure that you've, you've turned your body in a way that the dog can't get to you if it's a large dog. Look, if you think of my dog, you want to get

a like a leg

thighs are good because they're nice and big in between that dog and your cat and the dog can chop up and then just to say loud once or twice, maybe three times because sometimes when our emotions are heightened, which, if my dog is doing something that's scary that she hasn't done before, my emotions would be heightened. I would be scared, nervous, guilty, defensive, you name it, those emotions are all going to say, I don't feel safe. Can you please grab your dog? Because this point is not even about unleashing them it's about moving them back. Right You act you want them to come and physically grab their dog and move their dog away from you. And if it's a very small dog, they might not understand that this feels unsafe. Right. So if it's a if it's a big dog, big dog owners often understand that their dog maybe is scary. I have 100 pound dog that looks like a wolf. She's scary to people that are either nervous of dogs or have smaller animals. That makes sense to me as the owner of a large dog, but somebody that owns a small dog is not used to encountering situations in which people are actually afraid of their dog, or in which their dog can be controlled. He is scary. And so if you own a Pomeranian or a Chihuahua, or one of these smaller dogs that could still be very scary to a cat or another small pet. But it's really hard for the owner of that dog necessarily to understand that that is an unsafe situation for your animal. And so to really start from that position of this feels unsafe. I feel unsafe, please grab your dog. My cat is not okay, please grab your dog. I need more space. So you want to talk very much about what your own needs are, and what your own cats needs are, you know, and then asking very clear, because when we're scared, or we're nervous, or we don't understand what the React interaction that's happening is, if it's come as a surprise, people have trouble hearing. And so you might have to say the same thing two or three times. In very similar language before it happens, and sometimes I practice those things, right? So I have a large dog, she would kind of like to taste small dogs. And so small dogs running up to her in public isn't safe, we don't take her places that that's likely to happen. And so I routinely say, My dog is not okay around other dogs, please grab your dog. Right? My dog is not safe with your dog, please grab your dog. And so you can see my cat is not safe with your dog, please

Hasara Lay 12:30

grab your dog is my next question was when you're in that situation? I'm not sure about everyone else. But I find that old logic just goes out of my head and panic just sits in. So your suggestion that we practice saying those terms or those lines so that it just comes out automatically?

Amanda Semenoff 12:50

Absolutely. When we when we're really stressed, our brain goes to stuff we've practiced. And part of what we want to do is just scream at the top of our lungs to make the situation stop. That will panic our cat very much. And so what you really part of protecting your animal is keeping your body calm, which is incredibly difficult, right, that deep breath through your nose, blow out through your mouth, rolling your shoulders back. Those kinds of physical things that help our body stay calmer, really will help our animal Stay calm. Because if the animal freaks out, it will often trigger the prey instinct in the dog. And that's very dangerous. So, like my dog might be okay around a cat that doesn't run. But the moment that cat runs, her instinct is to chase it and catch it. And that is a terrifying situation for both myself and the cat owner to be in right like this is that's the nightmare scenario no one wants, right. And so, the more you can keep your body calm, the more you can keep your tone calm, the more likely the other dogs is to stay calm, the less so the other thing is, is that if you trigger that dog owner, you trigger that dog. Right? The same as if you trigger the cat owner, you trigger the cat, right? Your cat depends on you for a feeling of safety and security in the world. Right? The dog owners, the dog depends on the dog owner for a sense of safety and security in the world. And so as us as owners as we get excited or upset, our animals feel it and then they behave accordingly.

Hasara Lay 14:31

Yeah, that's such a I am I really agree with that one. So the next scenario is that we've had continue with the dogs, situations. We've had a few cat explorers have dogs come up to them. They've been aggressive. And then unfortunately, the dog owner has said something along the lines of well, what did you expect you bought a cat out here cats are meant to be inside and we know that the people in our community they go cat exploring to enrich their cats lives and because living within four walls would just drive anyone to Crazy. And when Usually, I get questioned a lot about cat exploring, and I explained the how it enriches our cats lives and the science behind it. But I feel like in those moments where dogs being aggressive, the owner say something like that and isn't too willing to help out is not the right time to give that spiel. What do you suggest we can do in those situations?

Amanda Semenoff 15:22

So one of the things that's actually sometimes very effective and totally non intuitive, is to ask somebody a question about what they just said, that wants you to go a little bit deeper. So if somebody says something like, you know, what are you doing out here? This is a, you know, not as inappropriate space for cats. I'm just be like, so you don't believe that?

Cats are

safe in public, right? Or, or maybe it's, you know, just like, like, help me understand. You don't think I should be in public with a cat. And what that does is it kind of just brings them down a little bit and it kicks the front part. They're thinking brain into action a little bit more. So often those kind of statements come from a defensive space of something has happened. I am not used to it. I'm not feeling okay. And my instinctive reaction is to say that that thing that has happened as well. And we do that in lots of places, right? I mean, when you started having cyclists on certain, you know, car only roads, part of drivers not wanting cyclists, there's they're free to hit them. Not that they don't necessarily want to share the road, it's that they're afraid they're going to kill somebody. Right, that this sort of new behavior is scary, because it makes us take accountability for things we're doing ways that maybe we're not ready for. And so if we know we're somewhere new, this person hasn't encountered us before. This is likely to be scary to them, because they have an animal that's acting in an in potentially frightening Lee that could have consequences they really don't want to deal with right I don't want my animal to injure your animal. Like, that's not how

I want to start my lovely morning walk right?

This is definitely not the way they thought their day would go. And now they're having this kind of ugly interaction. And so, you know, to just have a little bit of empathy for them. While maybe it's not the work we feel like we should do. You know, sometimes it would be lovely if they would do that work themselves. But to just have that bit of empathy for like, this is a person who isn't necessarily expected to get up this morning and have their world change a little bit.

Hasara Lay 17:31

That's a good point. So then say we ask that question. So say we say why do you believe cats on out loud out here then, if they're still in that? I don't want to say aggressive but if they're still feeling defensive, they might respond with because cats aren't meant to go for a walk them and to stay inside, then how do we respond to that? Because they might still feel a bit defensive that were questioning them.

Amanda Semenoff 17:57

You could say something like, have you heard of cat explore You know, there's a large community of us that actually believe this is really positive. And you know, at some point, if you'd like to hear more about it, I'd love to talk to you. Right? That mean, this may be even a person that owns a cat at home and doesn't bring them out. Right. You know, some of us are cat households, and some of us are debt dog households, but I think probably there's more combined Cat Dog households than either one or the other, right? Like pet owners are often pet owners. And so, you know, there's like, actually, there's lots of us. And in many parts of the world, this is really normal. Right? But it's that piece of can you stay calm enough to be like, you know, in many places, this is really normal. And, and if you're interested, you know, I can show you where there's more information is something that removes you from the argument about how you're going to share this space that is potentially your neighborhood park or, you know, some local trails, too. Lots of people are doing this And and other places. It's okay.

Hasara Lay 19:01

Yeah, that's a that's a really great point and actually on that an idea that I have these I actually give out a card when I get asked questions about cat exploring because we get asked quite often so what I'll do is I'll put that template up in the show notes for everyone so if you want you can download that and just print up a few copies and just give them out when you get off because um, sometimes it's a lot easier just to say that there are so many and I also actually share the things that the other cat stir so like we've got cats ago stand up paddleboarding, or go hiking and things and I like sharing that because kind of highlights that cats can do this kind of stuff. So that's a really great point. I really like that Amanda Thank you. So another scenario is that the dog comes up to the cat explorers and they interact with the dog and who calmly says or my dog loves cats but for cat explores the concern is actually that the cat does not like the dog. He's uncomfortable with the dog. How do we convey to the dog or not that it's not the consent isn't the dog? It's the fact that it's our cat who isn't dog friendly. What do we Doing that situation.

Amanda Semenoff 20:01

So similar to the kind of first on leash aggressive dog interaction, because for the cat owner and the cat, whether the dog is aggressive or not may not matter. So the kinds of things that are going to work are going to be really similar between the two situations. It's my cat is not okay. Right? It's that kind of frame. And so, you know, my cat is really afraid of dogs. Could you come grab your dog? Right? My cat is really afraid of dogs. Could you come grab your dog? I mean, if my toddler say I don't have a toddler anymore, but when I did if my toddler had been really afraid of dogs and your dogs running up to her, and I'm seeing that and you're going old, like my dogs, great with toddlers, you're not a great person, right? You're not a safe member of our community. Like when somebody says, I'm afraid of dogs. Most dog owners aren't good, but my dog loves people that we'd like. That type of frame isn't normally how we think we think These animals are great, it's all good. And a lot of dog owners are pretty lazy fair with their dogs, because for the most part, they're well behaved and mostly friendly. And so that my cat is afraid, right? My cat is afraid of dogs removes it from being about the person's dog to where the cat is at, or even, I am afraid of dogs. Right? So, you know whether, because sometimes the cats afraid of dogs, and sometimes it's the person who, whose cat exploring Who is the one that is really, really afraid of what could happen, right? I mean, sometimes our mind goes to all of the scary things that could happen as this dog approaches us. And to pull our minds back to exactly what's going on right now can be really helpful. Right? So Am I safe? Is my cat safe? If the answer to those questions are Yes, and being a little bit afraid is okay. Am I safe? What's happening right now? You know, is is this dog friendly or aggressive? Because if we're actually really scared, it's not always obvious whether a dog is friendly or aggressive. Right? That, you know, looking at the animal blocking with your body, those kinds of things that help us, you know, remember that we are safe. This dog owners probably not a jerk. Right? They're, you know, they're, they're probably well, meaning maybe they have a cat at home, their dog gets along with cats, right? And, in fact, if they're not, if, if the dogs running up to say hi to the cat, probably they do have a cat at home, if it's friendly, right? So this may be an interaction that feels very normal to them. Maybe not very normal to the cat explore. And so really thinking about, you know, what kind of words can I use to convey that I have needs in this public space to be okay. And right now that he is I need you to grab your dog. Once you grab your dog and moved between You know, your dog and my cat, then maybe we can have a conversation. Maybe this is the perfect person for your cat to meet a dog with never know, right? It could be, this could be the ideal dog for your cat to really meet and explore for the first time. And so you want to be open to those kind of lovely public interactions. Because sometimes the people we meet when we're out with our animals are really people were meant to me. And those those relationships and those interactions become incredibly lovely. And

Hasara Lay 23:28

we have to make ourselves safe. That's so true. And I think one thing that keeps coming to mind is something that you said before in terms of that we have to try and stay calm as well. So that breathing in through your mouth and you know, as and you said put the shoulders back as well, like, do you have any other tips about staying calm.

Amanda Semenoff 23:43

So there's certain things and everybody kind of has their anxious the way their body tightens, and you can kind of go in two directions. If you calm your mind, you tend to calm your body, you calm your body, you tend to calm your mind. You know, they're very LinkedIn. So when we're anxious, our Shoulders tend to come up towards our ears. You know, a fists will clench our breathing will become shallower. And so any of those things and everybody kind of has their set. So you can think the next time you're really scared, maybe notice, like, what is my body doing? Right? Some people are really shallow, rapid breathers, and so close your mouth in a deep breath through your nose really, really helps me I carry a lot of tension through my shoulders. And so rolling my shoulders down and back, really changes that interaction. My, my partner, Chris, he clenches his fist, right. So which then tenses all of the muscles in his arms and makes him look really, really scary to somebody else, right? It's like, because suddenly, all of these and so he shakes his hands now, and that shift in in body language tells his mind to come down as well. Right. It kind of pulls you back to Your your footing sometimes works for some people taking a step backwards to give yourself space from whatever the, the thing that is making you nervous is but to take a strong step back, instead of a week step back this kind of like, instead of retreating, it's I'm going to decide to take space, a little bit of it's the same motion, but somehow in the mind, it's different. I right now I'm going to take a step back. That decision doesn't feel like a retreat in our mind. And our minds are in many ways, especially around triggering anxiety, fear, anger, these kind of really base emotions, a lot of simple stuff can trick them into calming down and making yourself think, right so that I'm, you know, as as that dog is coming out, okay, what are the words I say? Right? triggering that memory. It makes you feel like you know what you're doing right makes you calm. So any of those sorts of pieces where, you know, your body feels a little bit calmer, your breathing is a little slower. You're more in the present. So, you know, while a lot of fear is about what might happen, not what is happening. Right? So even noticing like where you are, what's going on? You know, is it sunny? Is it raining? Can you hear birds? Can you hear water?

What is the ground feel like under your feet?

Right? What is your cat smell like? What is your cat feel like? What's their breathing like? Those things that are happening right now help us to pull us into the present. And when we are not afraid and our minds not cycling through what ifs, we're much more able to think clearly

and to act as we would like to act.

Hasara Lay 26:50

That's that's a lesson I think that's something that's also useful for when you're not cat exploring as well when you get into conflict situation like at work or something. wiki, something like that. So moving along from, I suppose dog interactions. Another one that a few, quite a few people in our community have asked me about is this one. So, like I mentioned before, a lot of cats use a backpack or a stroller as this a safe space. So that's where they retreat true when they see a dog or they feel anxious, they feel safe and cozy in there. And it's quite common that when we're walking around and we bump into people they want to pet our cats. common experience my husband and I have with our cats is that people in Sydney, it's really hard to actually have a cat if you have a rental property. So a lot of people who are renters who love cats always come up to us and asked about our cat, but some cats just uncomfortable or if they're if they're in their backpack, they don't want to be touched and most people understanding of that, but sometimes I've had a few members in the community reach out and say that just people are just still gone in and put their hand in the backpack. And their cats have actually then gotten scared in their safe space and they no longer see their backpack as a safe space. And that's been quite detrimental to them. So what can we say to someone if they just go in and put their hand in the backpack with a stroller after we've told them not to do that? Or should we have said, Please don't do that in a different way?

Amanda Semenoff 28:12

Well, I mean, I have a few things it kind of depends in like everything in conflict resolution, it depends, right? It really depends on the situation itself. But like with the dogs, if you see somebody coming towards your cat, you can use your body to be like, No, actually. Right? You don't get you don't get to pet my cat today. Right. And probably the community that would know the most about this is a disability community with dogs. Because when their dogs are working, their dogs should not be pet. And people pet their dogs all the time. And so, you know, there's there's a lot of ideas around how we communicate with people, that this isn't their space, and they don't get to touch things and You know, it's an ongoing conversation in our community mean, we, we've been having those conversations about women's bodies, we've been having those conversations in the disability community for a long time around dogs. I mean, people in wheelchairs have that conversation about whether or not people should push them. And so, like, these are ongoing conversations that as a society we're trying to have around when something's in public, who has a right to direct with it, and how, and they're not results. And so, I mean, there's a few things that I think we should try. And you're not always going to be successful because not everybody has had the conversation with themselves around how much of the public space they're entitled to, and how much interaction in the public space they're entitled to. And so, I mean, the first thing we want to do is we want to kind of model the way in which we kind of cut out the people that just didn't really think about it, but happened to really like cats. You know, and so is there, you know, a little sign or something where they would reach in that says no hands. Right? I mean, I might even consider, you know, a sign that says, I bite no hands.

I scratch no hands that something this is like, like do not right. Until that gets us kind of over the hurdle of the people that might just be unthinking. Right or, you know, they might be impulsive, they neglected to ask you first, right? I mean, best practices with an animal in public is always to ask her Hey, can I can I pet your cat? Can I pick your dog? Would it be okay if and from my interactions in public that about a third of people follow those best practices? Right? They asked first, for everybody else. I if you see somebody walking up to your animal in the way that you are thinking they're going to touch them. They've certainly it's that same like move your body between your animal and the person you know Oh, I see you've noticed my cat, you've opened the conversation before they can do Oh, I see, you've noticed my cat. She's hiding in here. You know, she's a little overwhelmed, she's taking a break. And then if they still want to pet them, or maybe they ask more about them, you know, right now, you can look at her, but you can't touch her, or, you know, he's having a moment to themselves. If you sit here quietly, maybe he'll come out and say, right? If it's really important to them to have an animal interaction, maybe they just need to have a conversation with you about your cat for a moment. Maybe that's not always where we're at. A lot of these sort of interactions are, you know, what does my animal need? How do I achieve that? And then why is this person interacting with me in the first place in this way, right? So mean, nobody comes up to you because they don't like cats. The first house like they're here, because they really like cats. And so, like, if you have that kind of common understanding, they're not going to want to harm your animal. And, and so really, it's ignorance. Really, it's not understanding that when you take an animal out, they need a safe space. And this is what that looks like. And so by putting yourself in between by starting the conversation early, right, he's noticed the cat that allows you to then explain to them before they try to touch the cat that they can't touch the cat there. It gives you the time, because the last thing you want to be doing is slapping their hand away from your animal, or having your animal scratch them potentially because they're defending themselves. Right? As anyone who's ever seen the signs on like, so police dogs bite, if you stick your hands in the vehicle, right, they bite your signs that say that, like when they're in public with their handlers, they don't bite, but that's their space. And if you stick your hand in there, there's a good chance to buy and so you know, big signs. It's a conversation that had on a regular basis in places that have police dogs, that this is not an animal that you can interact with without the express consent of its owner or a handler. Right? And in many ways, we need that for cats as well. Like if your cats exploring in a way that safe, really nobody should be interacting with them without your express consent, which is above and beyond your knowledge, right? It's like, not just do they need to like know that you're there? It's like you need to have said yes. And potentially you need to have said yes and given them guidelines. Right. You may have a cat that would love to be pet, but nowhere near its paws belly, yours. Yep. Okay, you may have a cat that would love to sit beside somebody. But please don't touch your head. Right? And then you're going to know that and they're not. And so that like it looks like you'd like to interact with my cat. Here's what works for this animal can often lead to quite a lovely interaction between somebody that love to be able to have a cat potentially would love to be able to cat explore. And somebody that has a cat that might like the attention.

Hasara Lay 34:09

That's that's so very true. And it's so interesting what you say about how a society was still trying to figure out those guidelines because um, one thing that I've actually started doing because I become so appreciative of the people who asked me, can I pet your cat actually say thank you for asking? And then I say yes, or We've had a few situations where mothers come up with their kids, and then they teach their kids on in terms of don't stick your hand in there. Make sure you ask for permission first and stuff. And if I've got time, I always say thank you so much for teaching your child to do that. That doesn't happen that often. I really do appreciate it. And a lot of the times like some others have been surprised, but then others are. I'm glad I didn't realize that it was so important for me to teach them that so I'm glad that I'm doing it. So I think even just appreciating like showing that you appreciate that when people actually do it also helps as well, because like you said, I hadn't really thought about the fact that a society was still working on And we can all do a little job in doing that. Yeah, really interesting. Another thing that I've gotten used to is people take a lot of sneaky photos of us or they'll say snide comments within our issue. While we've been cat exploring. I usually what I do is I'll turn around and actually be like, do you want a photo or something like that, but um, it's taken me a long time to get comfortable to do that, because a lot of cat explorers are actually quite shy and they're not very used to interacting with people or don't want to interact with people that way. Do you have any suggestions on what we can do? Or say if people are doing things like that all saying snide comments to us? Well, well, not to us, but I suppose to their friends while we're out and about,

Amanda Semenoff 35:42

I guess there's sort of three ways you can deal with it is one is you can be like, this isn't worth it today. Right? It's not worth it. Right. It's a little picture, a little remark. Is this the thing I'm going to get into, you know, some potentially long and drawn out post Conversation with do like either. And if you're noticing that you're like, No, I don't care, but then you're thinking about it a lot you actually cared. And often the snide remarks or that kind of that space comes from this. This it isn't something I'm used to in public. And I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. It's change, right? This is change beer or we're not really sure what's happening here. And so that choice to engage if it's done from a place of person doesn't really know what how they want to just think about this is just labeling this night. Oh, I heard this. Would you actually like to have a conversation with me about it? Because it's like, yeah, this is my cat and we're out. Because what often in I don't know if you have any examples of snide remarks, we can think about how we might address them. Specifically that might be helpful

Hasara Lay 37:01

kill I suppose that kind of comes to my next question. So for example, people say, Oh, you shouldn't have a cat out here. You're being cruel to your cat. Does that person have no friends? So they have to take that cat out with them. That's a common one that we get as well, like over the ones that was like, Oh, that's just too much. That person's a bit weird, or I think those are probably like the main ones. That one yeah.

Amanda Semenoff 37:22

So and So for each one, you could kind of come up with a question that you would ask somebody in response, like, so what about me out here with this cat? Seems cruel to you? What? What about this seems cruel? Okay. Some people do find it a little bit weird, because it's not as common here as it is in other places, potentially. Right? Or, you know, like, Yeah, I do actually like my cat better than I like a lot of people, right? Isn't she lovely? So you can kind of like, take what the person has said and either explore it, because some of those are questions where somebody is trying to figure out how they think about this thing that they're seeing. Right, if we're taught the cats are indoor pets and you have yours outside, right, we might wonder, Is this about your cat? Or is this about you? Whose needs are you meeting? Right? And we wonder those things about pets sometimes. And so it can be a question that comes from a place of somebody is trying to sort out in their head. What this thing they're seeing me. Is it okay? Right? It's new. It might be strange to them, it might be challenging to what they believe in the world about what we do with our pets. And in that space, when somebody says, isn't that cruel, or you shouldn't be out here, really what makes you think I shouldn't be over here? What What is it about this situation right now that makes you think it's cool, or that it shouldn't be happening? And that conversation can actually end up being really interesting because you'll get to hear What it is about what's going on for them that has them jumping to that conclusion. Right? And then this piece of, you know, it's actually really normal. Right? We're right back to the friendly dog or the, you know, the person that's like, this is a dog space. What are you doing here with your cat? Right? And a lot of those snide remarks come from people's own discomfort. Right? It's a way of discharging their own discomfort, it's something different and not with the expected.

Hasara Lay 39:29

That's such a It's, um, it's comes back to that empathy side of things. Because as cat explorers, we hope that others empathize with us, but we also need to empathize with them and where they're coming from as well. And half the time they say those comments because they're trying to learn or process what they're saying,

Amanda Semenoff 39:46

or they're just really uncomfortable.

You know, this, this isn't how I understood cats to be in the world. Right now, something has changed and that bit of question cognitive dissonance. So in my head, I think one thing, I'm seeing something different. That's really uncomfortable for us. And so often people make like really bad jokes. Inappropriate humor is often coming from that space of I'm really uncomfortable, because I don't know how to feel here. And you see that in many spaces as people try to grapple with changes in their communities or in what's considered socially acceptable, or all of these different things is often you get these like, really inappropriate kind of jokes and snide remarks, and it can come from a place of somebody is, you know, just a jerk. And if that's kind of your feeling, then there's nothing you can say that's going to make them change their mind, and they're not worth your time and energy. All right, yeah, I can save your energy for things that are worth it. But if you get the sense that it's somebody you know, it's kind of like it's an offhand remark, and you kind of you can see that sort of thinking, discomfort in in that space, then the question can be incredibly effective.

Hasara Lay 41:04

It's so interesting you say that because I'm not sure what everyone's aware, but I've actually got a list of questions and scenarios that we're talking about here. And I'm looking at going through them and quite a few of them like you've just answered them all. So like for example, if you're walking and someone says our cats even allowed here, I suppose you could just think about it in that way. Maybe that's they're responding that way because they're not expecting to see a cat here.

Amanda Semenoff 41:26

Or they're not sure they're not sure if cats are allowed here. They've seen one before. They've never really thought about it. Our cattle out here Yeah, cats are allowed here. Like Absolutely, and you can respond to it as if it's an honest question. Right? You can assume an honest question and and respond accordingly. Sometimes when we assume best intentions after we've asked ourselves the Am I safe question if you're safe, if your animal is safe, if you assume good intentions, People will sometimes rise to good intention. So they might not have started out with that being an honest question. But when you treat it as an honest question, then it kind of in conflict resolution, a lot of the time we we do a lot of face saving for people. So people don't like thinking that they are a bad person, right, or thinking that they have behaved in a way that is negative or inappropriate. And so that first question out of their mouth, they might be regretting the moment they extended. And so if you address it as if it's an honest question, that they were actually curious, then in some ways, you're kind of giving them the benefit of the doubt. And if they weren't, you're allowing them to see face in the interaction with you.

Hasara Lay 42:40

That's such a good point as well. I really like that. So then, suppose this all links back to what you've been saying. But a lot of people have come across situations where they find that others are offended that they walking their cat so people have been told to leave even though an area's been cat friendly, just because people are struggling to accept that idea. Do you have any suggestions on how to respond in those situations?

Amanda Semenoff 43:04

So if somebody is upset enough that they're asking you to leave, then chances are that situation is no longer a good healthy space for your cat. Right? And, and so what I need you in a situation like that. So let's say I've been walking in a park, I've come across somebody that's really upset by me being out here. Now I just say like, I'm going to leave because, right, it seems like that's the thing that you need. And just so you know, this is a cat friendly place, and we walk here at this time, right? So you're setting up the expectation for them that you'll be back you're gonna leave right now. And maybe you walk Tuesday afternoon, you walk your with your cat, and this is normal. And, and so you can you can leave in this situation. Because having an upset person around your animal probably isn't necessarily a safe and exciting way for them to explore the world. But just leaving that expectation that you'll be back right now. Okay, I can leave. And this is a cat friendly area. And it will be back because this is a cat frantic area. And or potentially you can ask the question, you know, so what about me leaving right now is going to change things for you. What about me leaving right now? What will make a difference in your life? What's going on there? I mean potentially it's somebody that seen lots of Ashley's dogs and doesn't think you're safe. Potentially. It's somebody that is allergic to cats. My youngest daughter is on believably allergic to cats. So as I was speaking with Sarah, before the, the recording, I was mentioning, I used to be a cat household. My youngest daughter, probably within three or four feet of a cat, her eyes will, you know, all all start to read and she'll start to sniff. You know, we're talking about getting her the cat vaccine when it comes down for children. So this is something that's already on our mind. We might for health reasons, need you to leave That is something that, you know, we need to think about who who in this space are we impacting in our DC? And so that request to leave could be for a very legitimate reason that they actually have a need that they're expressing? Maybe they just need 10 feet of space, is that enough? And so that second question can be really helpful in figuring out like, do they need to leave the park or do they have allergies and they're nervous, because those are two very different situations. Okay, I can give you space crate that's something I can do. Versus do they think it's their space? Right? And you know, I depending on the interaction and whether this is a place you go on a regular basis and a person you see asked him, you know, what, what makes somebody feel like they have the right to ask you to leave. And so that is a conversation you can get into. If you have the time, energy and think it takes

Hasara Lay 45:54

in the energy side of things is easier to walk away.

Amanda Semenoff 45:58

It often is Right, we have to choose mean for cat explores. In many places, you're pushing the boundaries of what people in that space think of is normal. And sometimes they will push back. And so that interaction, you have to decide, is this a place that it matters for me to push back against this person who feels like their concept of what is normal is being challenged? And sometimes the answer is absolutely, yes. And other days, it might be no,

Hasara Lay 46:27

so very true. I don't really like that. Another question of view of us in the community I've been asked is by people is why don't you get a dog like a normal person? Any ideas on how to respond to that? I've got so many ideas on how I would respond, but they're probably not the most productive?

Amanda Semenoff 46:45

Well, I mean, it's, I guess it really depends. If you want to answer it off the cuff is something that's kind of funny. Or if you want to speak to your real lived experience of why you choose to have a cat over having a dog And depending on the interaction, you could go both directions. So you could just say, I'm not that normal and walk away. You know that like, I'm not that normal, right? normalcy isn't something I bought into, I'm doing something else, right? Because in some ways, that's kind of true, right? Your real lived experience is not in this moment that normal. And that's okay.

Hasara Lay 47:22

And who wants to be normal as can be boring?

Amanda Semenoff 47:26

Right? I mean, you're doing something that is distinctly not normal for the benefit of your animal in a way that is different than what society expects in some spaces. Or you could take that as an opening for a very real conversation. Like, Hey, I can do all of these things that I would have done with a dog but with a cat instead and nice and discreet. And would you like me to tell you about it? And so depending on how much time how much space, how much energy, you can use the really flippant answer of like, Well, I'm not that normal anyway. Right or You can use it as a potential opening for a very real conversation about the thing that you're doing differently.

Hasara Lay 48:06

I really like that as well. That's two ways to definitely look at it depending on your energy levels. And also, I think sometimes your mood on the day is. So, there's another side of things. So this scenario is something that's happened to me quite a bit. So some cats are really very cool. And they may when they're happy, they may when they say something they like they may have talked to the human I honestly could go on. And that's exactly like how our cat noxee is she meows about everything and it to someone who doesn't know noxee they think that she's actually distressed because she actually has different types of meows. And one of them's a very windy meow but that's just literally look at that. Look at that. I want to look at that. So a few of us have been approached by concerned strangers who question whether we're putting our cat in danger or distressing them because they're being really vocal. So how can we respond to them if people are being aggressive? About us trying to explain that our cats just vertical.

Amanda Semenoff 49:03

So as somebody who has an animal that is sometimes also very vocal in ways that are distressed, this is something that's very close to my own experience from the opposite side, I have a Howler of a dog. She doesn't bark, she handles only, and she does it when she's excited sometimes. And so, there's a few ways to think of it as the first is, is that somebody that is approaching you, because your animal sounds distressed, is most likely an animal lover, and they are deeply concerned. Right. And it is amazing how much you can bring down their level of anxiety by acknowledging the fact that they are responding because they think your animal is distressed. Right? Like, thank you for your concern. She does sound really distressed when she meals like this. Would you like to watch her for a moment to put your mind at ease? That she's okay. Right? Is as an animal If I saw an animal making noises that to me sounded really distressed, I would want to get involved. I want to go over there and make sure that that animal is okay. Great. If I hear dogs barking and growling at the park across the street, I will take a look and see if somebody needs to get involved. If I hear certain cat noises, I will go and look because it's important to me that that animals, okay, not everybody will go and look and not everybody will get involved. So that person that's come up because they really care. Most likely. I mean, you know, it could be somebody that just wants to tell you off, but most likely, you know, it's somebody who really cares, then so to say, Yeah, it does. Yeah, that call sometimes. Sounds distressing. It's not her distress call. Right. Would you like to Would you like to take a look at she's okay. Right. That, you know, acknowledging the fact that they're coming to you out of a place of really deep caring for animals now. They may have very specific ideas of what's okay and not okay for a cat. And you may really disagree with their concepts of what is okay and not okay for a cat. And that conversation may not go as well as you would like. Because it's hard when people have very, very deep convictions about how it is appropriate to treat an animal. When you're having a conversation with them, it can be really difficult. They have strong opinions, their deep seated opinions and you're unlikely to change them in that interaction. And so, you know, to say like, my animals, okay, she's in her safe place. This is not a distress call. Just nice, simple clear sentences that really acknowledge that this person's interacting with you because they care about the safety of this cat, then that really shifts how you interact with with someone when you when you can see here and you're like you are here because you care about cats. And in this moment, you are trying Your best to care about my cat. It might not be a way I appreciate this might not be the interaction I wanted when I left the house this morning. But in this moment, they're here to care about your cat. It takes a lot of the energy out of the interaction from your side. And it kind of lowers how, if you really know your cat safe and Okay, Zach Zahn, you don't have to put as much energy into this interaction, right? Because even if it doesn't go, well, you're not walking away wondering if they're okay, wondering what you should have said, you're just like, this is a person who cares. And maybe they're caring is slightly misguided.

Hasara Lay 52:33

Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good point. And I really like that thought, because it's actually quite lovely, that they caring about your cat so much that they want to come up and see. So that's very true. The next situation I wanted to pose here is something that I've dealt with multiple times. So when we're out and about sometimes you can accidentally stress your cat, or they'll actually stop misbehaving and they check it Have a hissy fit a bit like a toddler talking a hissy fit in a in the candy aisle. So for example, something that I struggle a lot with is our cat noxee doesn't like to go home when she's having a lot of fun, even if she's been out there for a long time, even if she's getting too hot, even if she's really tired, and she will do that displeased meow. And she will talk a very big hissy fit because she just doesn't want to go home. And sometimes we're doing that because it's for safety as well. But not everyone will understand that they will hear her meowing like that and highlight that she's distressed which she is because she doesn't want to go home or she's mad at us for something. So how do we explain that situation to someone while staying calm me sometimes when she acts like that I struggle to stay calm because I want her to come down without being attacked by a stranger.

Amanda Semenoff 53:47

This is the inherent struggle of every parent toddler as well. And in those terms, people may be more able to understand. So sometimes when stuff's going on, and it's hard to explain Reaching for a metaphor that makes sense to people is very helpful. So my cat is having a toddler style temper tantrum, because it's time to go home. You know, my, my cat is upset that I removed her from an unsafe situation that she was enjoying and is having a bit of a tantrum. Reaching for that kind of language is really helpful. And being a little bit forgiving of yourself. So, you know, I have many memories of just trying to get that one last Aaron done and now my kids having a screaming fit in public, or, you know, and so, there's a lot of self guilt that we have. Sometimes that increases the if the the energy of the interaction with somebody else who notices right so, if when my kid is lying on the ground screaming, you tell me I'm a terrible parent. I already feel Like a terrible, right? So if you've stressed your cat out by accident, or maybe you've just had a really awful encounter with a dog, your cat's not calm yet, maybe something has happened. You don't feel like a very good cat explore in that exact moment. And then those kind of barbs that comes flying from that onlooker, they can land in ways that really hurt partly because they feel a little bit true. Right? And you know, and so, in that space, being a little bit gentle with yourself to really matters, you know, to say, okay, when I get home, I'm going to take a moment to think about what happened here what I could have done differently without blaming myself for it. Okay, now, what do I have to do in this moment to make my cat Okay, and I can think about it, because it's really easy to feel really guilty. when something has not gone to plan, and your animal or your child is distressed.

Hasara Lay 55:55

I completely relate every time noxee does that I don't want to go home meow and hissing It's always very difficult to not be mad at yourself as well. So completely relate to that. The next set of scenarios is something that I actually had mentioned to you previously is actually about cat explores on social media. Because we do get attacked a fair bit by people who might not be across what cats are doing. So for example, it might be a comment or something like that, that will be like you're torturing a cat by taking them for a walk or something like that. How do we respond to those given that it's on social media, so you're not face to face with someone and half the time? It's a faceless, nameless account that you don't really know much about.

Amanda Semenoff 56:42

And it may or may not be a real person and it may or may not so mean a lot of people say really terrible things on social media. And probably one of my favorite kind of sentiments is do not feed the trolls. So if somebody has come in and they have said something that leaves no space for a conversation. Ignore them as they're just throwing hate around. And that's not where you want to spend your time and energy. If it's a bit of a question or like, if you sense that there's space for conversation there, then you can reply in many ways the same way you would reply if they were somewhat well meaning person in public, who was asking something that seemed a bit curious. Maybe it's badly worded. Maybe they're uncomfortable with the situation and so, you know, like so what about taking my cat paddleboarding to you makes it seem like torture. What is it about that? And you know, maybe they'll come back with like, welcome to cats a water. My cat doesn't. Maybe they'll come back with something else. Or maybe they'll prove to you that they're a troll. And so, like there's nothing wrong with blocking people that are thrown at you. You don't have to Listen, right? You can mute people that are throwing hate at you, you don't have to listen. And you don't have to engage. Like we don't have a responsibility to engage with every really angry person out there trying to make us feel bad about our choices. It's not your responsibility. And so you really get to decide, is this the conversation that I am willing to and want to have today. And if it is, then go for it. You can make lovely friends on Twitter that started looking like trolls and ended up being, you know, great people. And sometimes it's just an outrage machine on overtime. And somebody's throwing hate around because of some unrelated thing you have no idea about. And so depending on which side of the equation you end up on the days, kind of how you decide whether or not that's something you actually want to engage with.

Hasara Lay 58:51

So we'll put I really like that. So, my goodness, Amanda, you've been so generous with your time and you've given us so much you've armed us So many things that we can actually use when we're out and about or online or like just talking to friends and family about cat exploring. I really do appreciate it. Thank you so much. where can our community find out more about you and mindful resolution?

Amanda Semenoff 59:13

So I am on twitter at mindful Congress. Or you can find me on my website mindful resolution.ca.ca because I'm in Canada. And you know, it's just connect somewhere and and reach out and we're always happy to chat

Hasara Lay 59:31

and listen to your podcast as well. Is that available? Wherever podcasts are found

Amanda Semenoff 59:37

available everywhere podcasts are found that's overthinking complex.

Hasara Lay 59:41

Yep. And some really interesting ones. I really enjoyed the crossover. Yeah, one episode. Yeah, really interesting. So thank you so much for making the time. I really do appreciate it.

Amanda Semenoff 59:50

Thank you for having me.

Hasara Lay 59:51

Wow. Didn't Amanda just have some amazing advice for us? I've listened to this episode a couple of times as I've been editing it and each time I've picked up something Near, I'd love to hear what you've picked up. So if you take a screenshot of your phone or take a photo and upload it to Instagram stories, tag us at cat explorer community and then explain what you've learned, like she just had so much magic to share. Or if you prefer to use Facebook, we'd love it if you could come into our Facebook group can explore community and if you tap on your episode description, there'll be a link there for you to go into the Facebook group. If you're not a member yet, I'll create an episode thread and in that I'd love to hear what you've learned from today's episode because I'm pretty sure that some of you would have picked up some stuff that I know I definitely have missed. Thank you so much for being a part of our community. We really do appreciate it. That's it for today. Until next time, enjoy giving your kitty the world