Ever wondered how to train your cat is they aren’t motivated by treats? Or whether you can train your older cat? Or what to do about kitty litter while you are out & about with your cat? Or perhaps, you’re wondering how to start catexploring.

We chat with Julie from Cat School and answer the most common questions we get asked about catexploring and training cats.

What we talk about

• How to train your cat if they aren’t food motivated

• Types of treats to use for cat training & where to find them

• How many treats to use per training session

• How to reduce the number of treats you use per training session

• Can you train kittens?

• What to focus on when training kittens

• Can you train older cats?

• Can you train more than one trick per session?

• How to train your cat to go outside

• What to do if your cat is terrified about going outside

• How to train your cat to go outside, based on where you live

• Getting a safe zone for your cat while exploring

• How to start catexploring

• How to harness train your cat

• How to pick a harness

• What are the limits of catexploring?

• Are you still catexploring if you are in your backyard?

• How to get your cat used to busy streets

• How to keep your cat cool and hydrated in summer

• What to do if your cat is scared of new experiences

• What do you do for kitty litter while catexploring?

• What do you do or say if people stare at you while out and about with your cat?

• What to do if you see an off leash dog while catexploring

Guest – Julie from Cat School

Website - catschool.co

Instagram - @cat.school

Facebook – Cat School Cat Training

YouTube – Cat School

Cat School Podcast Episode

Julie on the Catexplorer Podcast – How to train your cat and enrich their lives with Cat School

Safe zones while catexploring

Cat backpacks

Cat strollers

Harness training

Cat School harness training program

Free guide to harness training your cat

Sponsor

This podcast is bought to you by Cat School. Use CATEXPLORER for 10% off your very own clicker training kit and training program.

Music

Music for this episode was composed and performed by Kory McIntyre.

Cover art

The photo used for the cover art for Season 3 of Catexplorer Podcast is of @renske_aken & was taken by Sylvia van Heek.

Transcript

Julie  0:00 

kittens and older cats can both learn. kittens can learn, obviously at a young age, and I encourage people to train their kittens. The one thing I would say though with kittens is you want to focus less on actually training and more on socialization. And so you want to make sure that they're not scared of things.

 

Hasara Lay  0:20 

Join us as we chat to amazing cat explorers and experts, learn from them, listen to their war stories, celebrate the wins, and laugh at the funny moments that have been a part of the journey.

 

Welcome to the cat explored podcast I'm Hasara. Today's episodes a bit different. while speaking to Julie from cat school, I realized that we often get asked the same questions about cat exploring and cat training. So in this episode, we answer those questions from How to Train Your cat if they're not food motivated to what to do about kitty litter while you're exploring, to how to react to those comments that you get while you're out and about with your cat. This episode is a second time we've had Julie on the podcast. If you haven't had Julie's first episode, make sure you check it out because it's full of so much helpful information about training your cat. Scroll down in your podcast app or on our website to Episode Two, how to train your cat and enrich their life with cat school. And before we jump into this chat would love to hear that you're listening along. So take a screenshot of your phone or a photo video of what you're doing right now. upload it to Instagram stories and tag us at cat explorer community and at cat dot school. We love re sharing your thoughts on the podcast episodes and can't wait to hear what you learned from this one. We all know how important it is to enrich our kids lives. It helps keep them happy and use up that excess energy which otherwise might be taken out on our furniture. Some of us do this by cat exploring or making our homes fun for our kitties. If you're like me, you probably don't want to go cat exploring It's super cold or super hot. But you kids still have that excess energy, and they may feel a little cabin fever and bored, and a great way to keep your kids entertained during those cold winter months. All those boiling hot summer days is clicker training, I learned the hard way that I really needed some guidance with clicker training. And the cat school program was exactly what I needed. There are step by step guides on how to stop how to teach your cat to do a fist bump, how to teach them to jump over your arms and so many more tricks. Following the cat school program has taught me so much more about how to train and look after our kids than any book could have. It. I'm so grateful that we gave it a go. And we've got a special treat for you. You can train your cats with the cat school program and get 10% off the program and your own clicker training kit. Just use the code cat explorer at checkout at cat school.com. That's cat explorer at cat school. Dr. Julie, thank you so much. for joining us today for this very special q&a episode on the cat explorer podcast. How are you going?

 

Julie  3:05 

I'm great. Thank you for having me. So let's dive right in. So

 

Hasara Lay  3:09 

a lot of what you do is about clicker training and training our cats, but what do you do if your cat's not food motivated?

 

Julie  3:17 

Okay, so that's actually probably the most common question I get. Usually, I try to figure out what the person or what they owner is feeding their cat. And if they're feeding their cat dry food and leaving the food out all day, that does decrease the value of food. So that's my first steps. I always try to figure out what are you feeding your cat and are you leaving the food out? Leaving the food out all day is like giving someone a paycheck and then asking them to go to work. So they're not going to go to work if they already got their paycheck. So we have to switch that around and the first step is just switching to small, scheduled So that the food is not left in a bowl day. And then the second thing I try to encourage people because it just makes it really easy for having treats for training is if they switch to more moisture rich meals, so either wet food or raw, something with moisture in it, and then they reserve their cables or their dry food for training. So that's usually the two first things I assess what they're feeding their feeding schedule, and then I try to encourage them to create a difference between the meals and the treats but making the dry food, it can become the treat naturally, really easily if they just switch two different meals.

 

Hasara Lay  4:38 

Yeah, that makes sense. That's exactly what you got asked to do as well and it really, really helped. So then what kind of traits should we be using to train our cat

 

Julie  4:45 

so if the diet is the dry food and they are going to go that route, then the dry food can become the treats and they make it dry food can be really good trades because they're small and you can also throw them so a lot of people probably see me throw tree It's one of the ways I get my cat to exercise. So the dry food is is good if you are already feeding your cat back, turn those into the treats if you're not if you've already upgraded your cat food to raw or something like that, then I really like freeze dried treats. That's what I use. So freeze dried chicken freeze dried duck freeze dried Turkey, there's all sorts of different flavors, but freeze dried you can break them into really small pieces. And if you're feeding your cat freeze dried chicken you're not going to feel bad about giving them a lot of treats because it's just little pieces of chicken versus you know, using something more you know, something more commercial, like something that has more ingredients in it or process I should say something more processed. So yeah, so I like freeze dried treats us my treat of choice.

 

Hasara Lay  5:46 

Awesome said do you get those in actually fit pet food stores and things like that?

 

Julie  5:50 

Yeah, most of the pet stores carry freeze dried treats, and you can also find them online. Okay, awesome.

 

Hasara Lay  5:55 

So then how many traits should we use or do you have like a rule of I'm in terms of how many grams of tree

 

Julie  6:04 

I'm not careful, I probably should be more careful. So I just kind of guesstimate. But if I know I'm giving more treats, I'll just give less meals less portion size or smaller portion size, I should say. And because like I said, I'm just giving pieces of chicken I don't feel that badly about. So yeah, for me, it's not really something that I paid too much attention to. Although my goal would be to break the treats into the tiny I think that's my biggest problem is that the freeze dried treats come in big pieces and getting you know a knife out and cutting them into tiny pieces is something I should do, but normally I just grab it and I kind of break them and sometimes the pieces are too big because I know my cat will work for smaller pieces and it's just me that kind of not breaking them into the right size. So yeah, if I if I could do better, I would say just to make those treats really, really small and one The examples that I like to use is like if you think about us eating a smarty, like there's a massive size difference between us eating. Eating a smarty is getting a smarty as a reward, for instance. So if you look at that ratio and try to apply it to cats, the treats can be really, really small. So I could do better at cutting them into smaller pieces. But paying attention and weighing them is just not something I'm committed to doing right now.

 

Hasara Lay  7:26 

That's understand what I do sometimes, I have to lock myself in a room because otherwise the kiddies will come and try and steal the traits while I'm cutting them. And I'll cut we have a pair of scissors, really sharp scissors. Yeah, I just used those just to cut that traits. And I had them in a box so that I do it every so often in the boxes there. And

 

Julie  7:41 

yeah, and that's a good idea. And if you're prepared, that's one of the things that I think it's so important for training is to be prepared and to have all your supplies if you have to start by cutting trades and you're just it's just going to be a barrier. So and I don't want people to have any barriers to training their cut. So it's a good idea to kind of have everything ready when you're Starting to train, so you don't have to kind of because that can be stressful for you too, if you're trying to cut them, and you have to put them in another room and it just starts to become a lot. So yeah, doing it before something I should do, I should, you know, make a better habit of cutting them before and putting them into smaller pieces.

 

Hasara Lay  8:15 

I do it while I'm listening to a podcast or watching a computer or something that's not really that I don't need to pay a lot of attention to one thing that like we didn't really chat about is how do you find the traits to train your cat if they're not rude, motivated? Like Is that something that's challenging?

 

Julie  8:31 

Well, usually like if they're if it is the dry food situation, as I mentioned, where then it's super easy, because then we're using the dry food is treated so we don't have to, it's harder for that person to introduce a different meal. That's always the challenge because they'll say Oh, my cat doesn't like wet food, or I tried to get my cat on with food or raw food and it didn't work. So it's not about the treats in those situations. It's about the meals. It's about the diet. And there's all these ways to introduce your cats and new food. food but what I always say to people is you know, if you had a child say I only want to eat McDonald's, would that be okay? No. So we do have to work to change it. And it's just a slow and systematic process. There's lots of resources to help people but it's less about the treats. It's more about the food. Changing the cat to upgrading the cat's diet is the first step to building food motivation, and that naturally presents the opportunity for everything else to be a treat. Manufacturers of dry food, know how to make them taste delicious. I want your cat to love it. So they've done a great job at making those dry Kimball's tastes really good. So that's why they're perfect for treats if that's what your cat loves. And then so if you've already upgraded your kids diet, generally those people don't have as much of a hard time as finding finding treats like freeze dried. If your cat's already eating raw food. There's a lot of options for raw, raw treats.

 

Hasara Lay  9:54 

And when you say upgraded the diet, you mean moving away from more of those processed foods to more natural stuff. Exactly, yeah,

 

Julie  10:01 

so I kind of have like think in my head as a spectrum, you know, you have dry food, and then you have sort of canned wet food. And then maybe you have a home cooked food. And then you have raw food. And it's just a process of figuring out how to upgrade your cat's diet. And like, I'm not perfect by no means I'm always learning and everyone should just research and figure out what's best and not listen to one person who says you should feed your cat, this or that, but to actually, you know, become more educated in it. And there's So the one thing I would say is like, there's a lot of Facebook groups for raw feeding and stuff. So if people are interested, a lot of good resources on upgrading food,

 

Hasara Lay  10:44 

they even just trying to figure out what food to feed our kitties has been quite a big journey for us because knoxy and Loomis are very different. So liberals is very food driven, and he will probably eat everything whereas now he's quite picky. And what we've learned is actually very, like we actually do a variety of stuff so they don't actually get the same food every day. And that's actually really helped us a lot. So like some days, they might get raw some days, they might get a certain type of can and then occasionally I will give them the not so great canned or keyboard stuff, but as a bit of a treat, but I don't do that on days that we do clicker training to manage what they're getting so, right, yeah,

 

Julie  11:18 

yeah, I think actually, that's a really good point, the variety I really believe strongly in the variety of the diet, and I think cat owners kind of get stuck in feeding that one food and I have a very food motivated cat. He loves everything. And so I'm really lucky, I can give him lots of different options. But I think it's worthwhile for people to work towards being able to give different proteins and stuff like that as well, to have a variety in case there is some sort of nutrient deficiency in what you're feeding then now, you know, by switching the foods up, you're kind of avoiding that. So that I do subscribe to feeding a variety of different foods as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

 

Hasara Lay  11:56 

So then we've been talked about traits, but had you Lot reduce the reliance on trades when you're training your cat. So

 

Julie  12:03 

one of the things I like to help people learn is to create a chain. And you see that a lot with dogs that do agility they're running through. So if just let's just say an agility has like a weave pole thing, and then a jumper, a couple jumps and a tunnel. So you would teach each one independently, but then you build a chain, and the dog would go through all of them in one run. And so how you teach that is you there's, it becomes a little bit more complicated, because it's something called back chaining, which we won't get into. But basically, it means you teach the the chain backwards. So it's a it was we've pull, jump, so say the last behavior is jump, then you would do we've pull, then jump, and then you would do the behavior that came before that. So kind of be if it was like, let's say the behavior that it's the third behavior is the one at the end and then you go to one, so you would teach two to three and then you would teach 123. So I hope that kind Makes sense. But instead of going forward, you actually teach it backwards and you add on more behaviors. And then in the end, you're giving less treats because you're doing all these behaviors in a chain. So you could get your cat to do like 10 behaviors, there's like a pigeon that did, you know, thousands of packs, because someone took the time to like, work with them and teach them that they have to, you know, they get a reward after a certain number. And so you can do that with a cat, you can just keep adding on to the chain, but it is a bit more sophisticated. And I do try to encourage people to you know, kind of just start with the basics. And then we can, if the if, for instance, with the shake, you could teach, you know, say you teach high five fist bump, so you might teach high five, first give a treat, then you teach fist bump, give a treat, but then you put it together. So then you have fist bump, high five treat, and then you add another one before that, so maybe you have spin fist bump, high five. So now suddenly, the cat has to do three, four or five behaviors before they get one treat.

 

Hasara Lay  14:00 

Make sense? So then can you train kittens as well as all the cats? Or is there a particular age that you should be focusing on?

 

Julie  14:06 

No kittens and older cats can both learn. kittens can learn obviously at a young age and I encourage people to train their kittens. The one thing I would say though with kittens is you want to focus less on actually training and more on socialization and so you want to make sure that they're not scared of things because that's they have like a smaller window of socialization versus dogs. So after you know say after three months if your kittens never met a dog and then suddenly they see a dog on the street when you decide you want to do leash walks, you know a couple years later, then they can be scared for them so you want to kind of do your work of introducing them like I made a mistake with Jones my cat Jones and that didn't really introduce him to very many people. So now when someone comes to our door, he he's scared because I didn't socialism. I mean, I got him a little bit older and stuff and I found him side so you know I didn't really have a big window but still I didn't try because I didn't think about it so you do want to do that as a priority is make sure your cat is good with you know people and dogs and whatever they're going to see out in the world. Get them used to it and then you can do your training and yes, you definitely want to start because you want to get your cat used to nail trims and going in a backpack and wearing a harness it's so much easier to put a harness on a kitten than it is when your cat is you know three or four or five or 10 so yeah definitely I would I would love to have another kitten and have a go at it and do things that I didn't get a chance to do and yes older cats as well older cats can learn there's no age that you would say you know they can't learn if their food more we always tell people food motivation is more important than age. If you've got a food motivated cat you're good to go. Not you go to spend time building that

 

Hasara Lay  15:53 

age is not it's possible. Oh, it is absolutely possible. You've said this to me previously. I can't remember what that was on the podcast but it's like saying that an old depressing, Caitlyn Nice.

 

Unknown Speaker  16:01 

Yeah, yeah, it's not nice.

 

Hasara Lay  16:05 

Yes. And I'm curious to focus on this. So when we first got Loomis and oxy, I put so much effort into socializing them. I had so many friends over all the time. And then as we've had them for longer periods of time, we haven't had as many people come over. So I've actually noticed that they've become a little bit more nervous around people coming over there. Okay, what people when we're exploring, but when they see people come over, they get a lot more, they want to sit up high. Whereas in the past, they used to get in the middle of everything. So do you believe that consistency is also an important thing there?

 

Julie  16:35 

Yeah, I do. And I think it's also personality. You know, some animals just Are you doesn't matter what you do. They're kind of just born to be more social than other animals. Consistency, yes. But can it's always hard with consistency because like, even if there's so many different people, so you know, if you had let's just say for example, you had a cleaning person coming into your house and your cat could get to know That person that's totally different than you having strangers over you know so I'll you know consistency with the cleaning lady cleaning person would be great because they would get to know that person so yes that would work well. But if it's strangers and different strangers coming over i don't think that it would be hard for you know a cat that's just naturally nervous or fearful of people I don't think bringing people into the house unless you were really doing training with it like associating the person with good food and stuff I just it would be hard to change their mind and make it a positive experience for them.

 

Hasara Lay  17:34 

Okay, that makes sense. I think one of the things we realized is we just need to make sure that all lot higher shelves especially for knoxy or higher shelves are clean clear so she can just sit there and watch everyone like

 

Julie  17:44 

yeah, you can make a good like you can certainly try can't hurt to like good things come out when people come over so special treats, they get special treats when people come over, and then they might you can see do like a little experiment but yeah I'm not guaranteeing it would work, but it's worth a shot. Certainly, it's going to make a positive experience of people coming over, you know, that would be good.

 

Hasara Lay  18:10 

Yeah, it's just really interesting. They're fine with people when we go out but I suppose when they come into their space, they're a bit more anxious and lately it's been that we've had a lot of people come over at once rather than just one or two. So

 

Julie  18:21 

I will say it's also like space is a bit like keeping people at a distance and when they come into the house, it's hard to manage that but when you're outside, like it would be the same thing if I you know, you know, I do that I introduce my cat to other cats outside but there's tons of space so I can always knock him away and the other cat is always free to run away but if I just tried bringing another cat into the house, it would be a disaster. So that feeling of space is important. And I think outside they maybe feel like they can run away or I don't know I don't know the setup that you're doing outside when they meet people, but it might be different in the house. There's they're more confined, there might not be places There's many places to go or hide and stuff.

 

Hasara Lay  19:02 

Actually, when we're outside, they jumped into that backpack. But when we're at home, the backpacks actually pulled away because we run out of space. But maybe next time I'll have the

 

Julie  19:09 

backpacks interesting. Yeah, that's worth it. Yeah. Yeah, I'll give that a go. That they feel that's a safe place. I would definitely encourage you to Yeah,

 

Hasara Lay  19:18 

yeah. I'll try that out next time. It's, it's all experimenting, isn't it?

 

Julie  19:22 

Yeah, it's experiments and you also have to kind of pick and choose like, what are you going to work on? What do you you know, for a long time I didn't really work on fear of people with Jones because I was like, oh my god Am I going to give him treats for this to like, I was already doing you know, I'm doing bag training. I'm doing trick JD. Do I want to give them treats and and the other thing about trying to make these associations is if the cat gets treats for so many different things, they the association won't work as well. If you want to him to overcome their fear of people. You have to just you know, really say good things happen with people and not much else like you want to make that one stand out the Joneses. I like oh, I'm working on all these things. I don't really want to work on people. And I didn't. And now I am working more on people. So like when we're outside, if he sees a person, I always give him a treat as soon as that person is about to pass, because I don't want him to be fearful of people outside, but I didn't bother working on it for a long time.

 

Hasara Lay  20:19 

And I think it's also like we all live busy lives. So you have to focus on what you have the time to do as well prioritize. So

 

Julie  20:26 

yeah, what are you going to get to doing now? How important is that one to you?

 

Hasara Lay  20:31 

Yeah, exactly. So then we've kind of touched on it already. Can you do more than one behavioral a one trick per session?

 

Julie  20:37 

Yes, absolutely. You should, you should do more than one because you want to figure out like what your cat likes. And I always like to do bunch of behaviors. And then if the cat doesn't like something, he'll go back to the other one to let me know. Let's just do this instead. So it's actually kind of funny to do a bunch of behaviors. But yeah, I think I like to do I always say to do an active 111 That's an active so like jumping through arms or jumping over your legs and I try to do more active ones at night to to tire him out and then one that's more brain work. So something that they're really have to think are problems all and then one for handling is always good like you can't do too much of that where you're touching their paws or brushing them or brushing their teeth. I mean, I brush his teeth every night. So that would be mine that I'm always working on. I'm always working on you know, getting them more comfortable touching his face, opening his mouth, all that stuff. So yeah, I'd work on those like three, three, those three types for each session.

 

Hasara Lay  21:34 

That's a really good idea. So can you and how do you train your cat outside?

 

Julie  21:38 

Well, the first step and I always ask people is like teach them the basics indoors because if your cat is not listening and not attentive and not eating treats, not responding to you indoors, you're not going to have success outdoors. So the basics happen indoors, then when they're doing the basics indoors, you can start taking them outside in a load, you know, in a in an environment that's not too distracting. So if that's possible, I know everyone kind of has different situations and stuff outside their house, like I have a porch. So for me, I can go out on the porch and work with my cat. But if you had a yard, that would be really good. If someone had a yard, we don't have a yard, but that would be great. You know, it's not. But I guess some people would say, Oh, my God, my yard is super distracting. So you have to kind of figure out what works for your cat. And then bring your really good treats and start doing the easy behaviors first, and giving lots of rewards for attention and stuff. But I will probably might not suggest trying to think if I would actually say to do it, not right away, but let your cat explore the environment a bit. And then yeah, I think that that's kind of what works for us is I don't expect him to have tons of attention when we first go outside, but after you know, maybe 1520 minutes, then I would start asking him to do stuff that makes sense.

 

Hasara Lay  22:51 

So we're all about cat exploring. But what do you do if your cat's terrified about going outside?

 

Julie  22:56 

I try to always help people figure out like what is their cat threshold where they can eat food and notice the outdoor so that could be to all use meters. Do you guys use meters? Yeah, we use two meters away from the door that you can open the door and the cat will look outside and make sure when you're doing this, they're wearing their harness. Obviously, we're not, you know, opening doors without harnesses on and stuff like that, but you have their harness on you're ready to go but you find the spot where they can still function they're still either not too nervous that you they can't eat. So that's like the thrush we call that the threshold, which is the spot where they don't the cat sorry, the dog, the cat notices that the door is open, but they can still eat food and you try to gradually move them closer and closer using food but not not lowering them not guiding them with the food but more just making a positive association with so you you'd set them up in their zone where they're comfortable. If people use like a Matter like like, I like to use the mat. So I would do an exercise where the cat is going on their mat. And then I throw a treat off the mat away from the door. And then when they come back to the mat, I may have moved it slightly closer to the door. And then I, again, reward the cat on the mat for going to the mat and then I throw the treat away from the metaphor of the door to give them a bit of relief. And then it's up to them if they want to come back to the mat and then I slowly move the mat closer and closer to the door. So kind of combine the training the treats and showing them that then you know the doors open, but they can still be attentive, that's kind of the strategy that I would use until eventually they're kind of peeking their head outside and then you're still feeding them and but they have to be in control. No one can ever force their cat to go outside. And I do like to use training and treats because it's a gauge for how nervous your cat is. If your cat won't respond to any training and won't eat the treats you've gone way over the threshold and you have to back it up. Good news is like every day we want to give our cat a bit of enrich So how far you get doesn't really matter, you're giving them lots of enrichment by standing, you know, two meters away from the door and they at least get to smell the fresh air and you're still working with them. So it's not really such a big deal to get outside because you're doing the same thing. You're giving them the enrichment that's really what it's about. It's not about you know, how far you get it's about are they growing? are they learning are they being you know, having like, enrich day are they getting do something so that's more like it's it's not the goal. So it's just like the journey you know, that cheesy statement, but it's true.

 

Hasara Lay  25:35 

It is true and it's so true, though, because if we were within four walls for 22 hours a day we would go nuts, right? We would mean to get out and get some air and and our cats are exactly the same as well. Like it just really does help them but um, one thing one question I did have is for example, I live currently live in an apartment or condo and I previously lived in a house and the way we Managed getting our cats outside in those two different environments was different. So is there a different way to train them if their terror like scared about going outside?

 

Julie  26:08 

Yeah, definitely, definitely. So yeah, should this is good question because I should mention that if the cat has a safe zone, it can become a lot easier. And so like, as you know, for your cats, the safe zone is their backpack, or it could be like a stroller. So that can help them build confidence because they know that they can always run back in. So if, for instance, someone was working on getting their fearful cat outside, but they lived in a building, it would be really hard because after they left the front door, they'd be in the hallway, and then then they'd have to go in an elevator and down the stairs and it would be really stressful. And then if the cat got nervous, they wouldn't be able to run back to their unit because, you know, they have to go through doors and elevators and so that would really affect the cats confidence because they don't know how to get back to their safe zone. So for those people, I definitely Definitely recommend backpack training or using a stroller stroller is really good. I know it's weird, might be considered weird. But it's just for safety reasons. It's just a really great way or the backpack like you guys use is just if you do the training and your cat loves backpack like you've accomplished, that's amazing. Then they they're climbing the backpack when they get nervous. So backpack stroller are the two things for people and buildings I think are just essential if you have a house and you're kind of getting to that point where your cat is, you know, you've done your work and you've kind of done that exercise that I was saying about moving the mat forward. And now they're kind of by the door, you can kind of have them you know, looking outside and exploring a little bit at the front. But as soon as they get nervous, like maybe a dog walks by, they just run back in the house so you keep your door open slightly so they can just feel like they always can get back to the zone where they feel comfortable and that will give them the confidence to keep exploring.

 

Hasara Lay  28:00 

So we've just gone through all the questions like the most common questions you get asked generally. So we'll shift gears and we'll jump into the most common questions that I get asked about cat exploring. So we're also shifting the gears in terms of you will be asking the questions.

 

Julie  28:15 

All right, so can you tell me how do you start cat exploring,

 

Hasara Lay  28:19 

I suppose a big part is also understanding what cat exploring is because everyone immediately thinks of climbing a mountain or going on a paddleboard or going to a cafe but there are so many different ways to go cat exploring and sometimes that's just going out on your balcony or like going into your backyard or going into your front yard somewhere where there's a little bit of air and I think the main thing to start cat exploring is making sure that your cat is harness trained and backpack trained, getting those basics down pat, and then slowly going into places where there aren't that much sounds or people or noises or animals that can scare your cat and then slowly expanding those boundaries as your cat becomes more comfortable. That we actually did was we started with our little courtyard which has four very high fences. So there wasn't really anything that would scare our cats. And then we moved to lane way which occasionally gets a person or two and then we moved to a local park. And then we just slowly expanded the boundaries till we started getting busier and busier places.

 

Julie  29:18 

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I always was curious about trying Jones in the tennis court. I never tried that. Like, I've never taken him to one, but I just think it would be a good option because it would, you know, be fully enclosed and safe and as long as people aren't playing tennis. But yeah, that makes perfect sense. Like starting with something like that. Like the courtyard is great. And yeah, moving towards more, but exploring just like the word it doesn't really have to be a big environment. It can just be whatever your cat finds interesting and different that they can, you know, smell like walk around and explore a cent and cents and all that stuff. So that makes perfect sense. Okay, so how do you harness train Academy.

 

Hasara Lay  30:01 

So I think this is a great spot to plug your program. School has a great hardest training for our growth. And I think the thing that a lot of people struggle with is finding the right harness as well. So every cat, every person, every activity you do is different. So just because a harness worked for me doesn't mean that it will work for you. And I think it's a bit of a journey where you do learn that kind of stuff. And you do need to think about the kind of activities you want to do with your cat and what your cat is comfortable with. And initially, like there are different ways that you can harness, train and cat. We've also got a great guide to about the basics if you subscribe to our mailing list, so I'll put all those links in the show notes. Usually it starts with some positive association with the harness and then getting your cat used to wearing the harness as well as getting some positive association and then introducing them to those outdoor environments. Like for us it was the courtyard or it could be a balcony and then slowly expanding those boundaries. Hmm,

 

Julie  30:56 

yeah, that makes perfect sense. The one thing I will add is just in terms of the styles of the harness like it does depend a lot on the personality of the cat so like your cat is super fearful you might want to get a harness that protects them even more that they you know they the focus is on not slipping out so like Jones is very fearful he has backed out of two other harnesses so I he's on like a vest harness that covers half of his body makes it harder to slip it whereas if you have you know, it's more of a chilled out cat, you're not really worried about them getting nervous, but you that you're worried that they won't walk with the harness on because it's something they've never worn before you might try something thinner and you know, just get them used to it and having fun and that's that so it's not about you know, you're not super worried maybe they're they're slow and they're not gonna run away or dirt off like I have to worry about with my cat if he gets nervous. So it does depend on the personality of the cat what your harness selection is.

 

Hasara Lay  31:53 

Yeah, definitely. And I think also what you're going to do so for example, I wouldn't put a jacket harness on a cat who's about to go into the water Because the jacket harness would take on a lot more water if they get wet, I probably use a hitch harness or something we found Australia doesn't get that cold but it did get a little bit cold this winter when we're going into a mountain so we initially try to put our best harness and the jackets on the kiddies and it was just too thick and yeah, so we had to put a Hey China's on for those

 

Julie  32:20 

and some other people with the vest harnesses that have like a lot of for those can have Velcro and that can be problematic for those cats because you know, the fur and the Velcro are kind of getting stuck with the first he gets. I mean, ARCA my cats have short hair. So it's never been a problem. But yeah, so that's the thing. There's lots of different variables that people have to but the most important thing is just to make it a positive experience, as you said, and just you know, like for instance, you show you the just like really quickly you show the cat the harness, then you give them treat, then you sort of touch them with the harness, give them a treat, and you do this over many, many days, not in one session and then you know, he sort of just little on their back for a second, give them a tree, take it off and you just keep going, then you lay it on for two seconds. You just keep going and going like that step by step, making it a positive experience. Yes, exactly. So what are the limits of cat exploring? And are you still cat exploring if you are in your backyard?

 

Hasara Lay  33:17 

Yes. So definitely, I think this is potentially I might have mentioned this before. But yeah, like we always think we see all those cats climbing mountains, or they're in a kayak or they're doing these adventurous things. And yes, that's cat exploring, but you can do cat exploring in your own way as well. And it also depends on your cat like we need to understand what our cats limits as well. So for some cats, all they ever want to do is sit in their backyard, and that's completely fine. And that is cat exploring as well. The whole point is just getting outside with a cat and giving them that opportunity to see something else other than what's within your four walls and doing it in a safe manner. So because cats who roam can have light you can reduce their lifespan from like up to three to four times because they could get hit by a car or ingest something that's toxic to them and things like that. So that's why we always say that it's great to go exploring with your cat rather than letting them do it by themselves. And you can do so many different things like it really depends on your personality and their personality and what you enjoy doing and what they enjoy doing. So for example, knoxy and I we love hiking, Daniel and Loomis hate hiking. So like Daniel liberals had they were they were just constantly just go to cafes, or pubs and things like that, whereas knoxy and I will be constantly hiking, and maybe one day in a kayak, but that's not something I trust Daniel with. Say, like, really depends on your skills as well, and what they will tell you what your cat is willing to do.

 

Julie  34:38 

Yeah, that makes sense. So how do you get your cat used to busy streets?

 

Hasara Lay  34:43 

This is a hard one because I don't believe every cat gets used to busy street because the reality is there's lots of noises from the people walking by. There's lots of noises from cars going, but it can be quite an overwhelming experience. So I think if you need to take your cat on a busy street, the first thing you really really need is a cat backpack or a stroller that's a safe spot. That's where they can hide in. And I think if you find that your cat's not used to being in a busy street if they're getting really anxious, do your best to avoid it. So we've had situations where we realized that we had to go down a main road. And instead what we did was we moved to a parallel road that was a lot quiet, I meant that we had to walk about another extra five minutes, but it was worth it because it meant that when we got to our destination, the kiddies weren't stressed, but in saying that it is possible to get them used to a bit of busy areas, but I think it's that thing where you do it in slow boundaries. So you start with area that's slightly busy. And then as they become comfortable, go to another area that's a bit more busy, and then you just slowly increase those thresholds.

 

Julie  35:40 

I'll give you a few of the tips that I use because we do live in downtown Toronto, which is very busy. So he is on a bit of a longer leash. So if people are passing and stuff, he can get some distance. So we'll say I'm walking him on the sidewalk, and then there's these lawns he can if he sees a person, he can just go on the lawn and The earliest 10 feet so he has that distance away from people and even a 12 foot sometimes Actually, no, it's 12 foot, ours is 12 feet, and it gives him enough distance to get away from people. The other thing is the time of day, I've noticed a huge difference if I walk them at like 630 in the morning or 645 verses eight, and sometimes I have to be careful because we'll be out and then it starts to get busy. And then now I'm far from home and I have to keep you know, I have to get them home quickly, because it is busier at that time. So but when I walk them early in the morning, it's much better because there's just some less people outside. The other thing that I will say is go the same route. I've learned this I take him on the same circle every day. So he knows his hiding spots. He's gotten so used to you know, he feels more comfortable because he knows all the safe zones that he can go to where he can like tuck into some grass and let a few people come by and I also know you know how I can get them home. Good. And where he stops and where he'll be scared and stuff so I really like repeating the pattern over and over again until we get confident and then I'll kind of add to it a little bit but I always try to keep it very like keep the circle or the loop that we do consistent yeah so those are kind of my my tips with the time of day have a longer line. I don't use a flexi leash with him because if he started suddenly that has happened to me I know some people use it and I wouldn't use it if I was in more of a park environment but not on a busy street because if you're not holding that leash and they suddenly dirt they could end up on the road so or get tangled and stuff so I don't use a flexi that's that's something I don't encourage people to use and busy cities.

 

Hasara Lay  37:45 

That makes sense. Yeah, definitely.

 

Julie  37:47 

How do you keep your cat cool and hydrated in the summer?

 

Hasara Lay  37:51 

I think this is quite this can get quite tough, especially when it's hot and humid. So I think the first thing to think about is Do you really want to take your cat out when it's really really Hi, I always recommend that you don't when it's a really hot weather or temperature or even like the sun is bearing down on you, sometimes the temperature might be low but because of the sun, your cat can feel overheated within the backpacks or really think about that. But there are ways that if you're out and about and you find that you need to keep your cat cool, something that we do a lot is we will wet our cat's head. So we just take some water, put it on our hand and then what Pat their head with it so that it cools them down a little bit that way there have been times when we've accidentally found ourselves in the sun for too long. And we've actually done that for the whole body as well. And sometimes we also just, there are a few ways to get your cat drinking water. I know some people like using syringe feeding but I think that does require some training. So if that is something you want to do just do some training for that. We also sometimes once again, put the water on our hand and wet our cats lips so then they will lick the water off that way as well and I use a lot of creamy treats so I would either add water into the treats and it just gets It's a bit mushy and then they'll eat it. Or we will just use those creamy to black treats as well. The ideal thing is to get your cat to drink water while you're out and about. But that's that can be quite challenging. I think it's hard enough to get your cat to drink water at home, let alone when you're exploring.

 

Julie  39:15 

Yeah, that makes sense. What do you do if you're scared of new experiences,

 

Hasara Lay  39:20 

I think this is back to that threshold as well and trying to understand what the thresholds are. So I always make sure that our cats have a safe space. So for example, the backpack or the stroller, and before we try these new experiences, our cats have been trained to use those as their safe spaces. So they know that if they're nervous, they can just go in there and we always I recommend that you always start with like, just testing it so putting your foot in. So for example, if you want to go to a cafe with your cat, try and find a cafe that's got outdoor seating and that's relatively quiet and then as they become comfortable with those noises, then go to a cafe that's got more people and slowly expand that way. Or if you I know a lot of people want to go on the water with their cats. Once again, this isn't for all cats. It's something that you needed to see if your cat gets comfortable with it. So I would suggest starting in the shallow area doing very short periods of time on your kayak or on your stand up paddleboard, and if your cat is responding well to it slowly expand that amount of time and the how adventurous you are with it. But I think we also need to be aware that our cats are always up to everything. So if they look uncomfortable, if they feel uncomfortable, if they're showing signs of nervousness, anxiety, we need to remember to pull back and not to be disappointed by it as well. Because you don't want your cat to feel stress. The whole point of going cat exploring is for them. It's fun for us, but it's also for them so we want them to be happy.

 

Julie  40:42 

I think that's a great answer. I won't add anything to it. You're welcome to

 

Unknown Speaker  40:48 

what do you do for kitty litter?

 

Hasara Lay  40:50 

Oh, I'm not gonna lie. This is something that we struggled with a lot initially. There are so many different things that you can do. So I know a lot of you have different forms of portable kitty litter trays. So what what I personally do is I've bought a big Tupperware container and I fill that up with kitty litter and we just, it's so easy because we just grab it before we go anywhere and we leave it in the car. And it's actually been great when we've been to friends places or hotels or like had that sudden trip that we just couldn't even plan for and just had to take it with us. And if our kids decide to go to the bathroom or outside, we always pick it up using a doggie bag so we have those doggie bags of oil available as well. I know that some people if it's in a bush, they think it's okay, but you don't want to be the pest and cleaning up that bush and then having to accidentally find some cat poo. You try to trim the bush sir. That's why we always clean it up. Like if you're on the beach, we always make sure that we clean it up there as well. I know some people when they go camping, they take like little shoe boxes and they line that with plastic bags to help because it's a bit smaller than carrying a Tupperware container. It's easier to have that in your bag. So that's an option as well. We've actually got an article with Lay Two different types of disposable kitty litter trays that you can buy and that you can use for the for cat exploring. So I'll include a link to that in the show notes as well.

 

Julie  42:09 

Yeah, we use the Tupperware system. I like that so so easy to get it in the car and out of the car and there's no mess and so he even like after our most recent trip, I just started getting him to use the Tupperware all the time so like the big plastic container the biggest plastics see through container that's what he's using his litter box now, because I realized that when I went away he hadn't he wasn't used to using it. I was nervous if he wasn't going to go in and so then when I brought it home, I was like, You know what, I'm just gonna set this up next to the other boxes and he's been going in it so he likes it. So that's good news for me, but I like that system and he will go outside on which I love I always get really proud of him for doing that. Sometimes people ask me about like toilet training their cats and but I'm not about toilet training. I'm about teaching him to go out. Yes, that would be my goal. Like when I see him go outside, it just makes it so easy. Yeah, yes. And I heard you know, like after having dogs, I mean, that's what I'm used to. So if I have a cat that's more dog, like I'm always, you know, excited about what do you do when people stare at you? Or what do you do or say when people stare at you?

 

Hasara Lay  43:24 

So that's a one that I know bothers a lot of people and it sometimes bothers me, it really does depend on my mood as well. So I think how I respond does depend on my mood, if I'm having a good day, and I'm feeling a bit bubbly I even if they're saying something, if I can hear them saying something that's a bit negative, I will just put on a super bubbly, super happy thing and be like, Oh, do you want to take a photo of my cat and I know that they're probably teasing us about it, but sometimes I find that they get really thrown off by it's a bit like killing them with kindness. They get so thrown off that way. I just have no like, they expect me to pick up on the vibes, but I pretend that I Have no idea and then they just actually end up being quite kind. And then I actually a big thing that I do is I tell them about everyone in our community and tell them about what you guys do. So like, for example, the ones of you who go to national parks or go hiking or like all the amazing things that you do, and that really seems to just make them stop and think and realize that this is a thing and that there are so many people out there that do it. There are times when, particularly if I'm in a bad mood, or I'm not really in the mood to be talking to people, I'll just smile and walk off or sometimes I just ignore it, and I just walk off. I know that's probably not the right perspective to do but I find that if we engage with what people are saying, if they're being negative, it ends up becoming a confrontation and you know, they're looking after your cat you don't want to be confronting someone else and if anyone's like me, if I get mad, then I find that I struggled to manage my emotions even looking after our cat so I'd rather just stay calm and it's easier to walk away.

 

Julie  44:55 

Yeah, that makes sense. I it's funny because I think because I am interested inverted and I usually assume people think it's more weird and I kind of try to avoid, but then when we actually surely make contact, it's usually more positive than I had expected. So that always kind of surprises me. So like, even with construction workers, that's kind of, I guess, who I get the most dressed about, because I just think they're, you know, making fun of me with one another. But then if I actually make, you know, eye contact, sometimes I'm so surprised, like, a bunch of times, they've said, you know, oh, I let my cat out on the leash to think you don't even know. You can't assume that people are staring at you, because they think it's weird. They might be trying to engage with you and say, you know, we do that to, like, we do that with our cat to or what they might say to me, which is I really wanted to do that with my cat. And I didn't know how to get them on a harness, like, how did you do that? Or where did you get your harness from? So it's funny, but I think my first assumption is Oh, people are looking at me. People are staring at me. What I'm doing is weird and then it usually turns out to be the opposite but that was just my you know, my stuff was going on at all. And I connect with people too so it's Yeah, I haven't had very many negative experiences about people from people like staring at me or anything and maybe that's also where you've I think it's probably dependent on where you live too.

 

Hasara Lay  46:25 

I agree. And I think a lot of the time the people who are trying to take the sneaky photos their cat lovers to as well yeah, so if you like engage with them, like the number of times I've been like seeing someone trying to take a sneaky fighter and then I'd be like, I'm positioned Daniel so they can take the photo properly. And then ask like Ben that said something about I want to do that with my cat or Here's a photo of my cat look. And those I love those conversations, because hear more about cats, but it is I will admit, as an introvert it is challenging and it's also knowing your moods as well. Like you're not up to it. Put yourself through it like just went away. Yeah.

 

Julie  47:02 

And it also like if you have a cat that scared of people, you're not going to stay in engage. You don't want them coming over and approaching you and your cat is scared. That's not a good scene.

 

Hasara Lay  47:14 

And then in those situations, you can just be like my cats a little bit scared and nervous about people. So I'm just going to walk away because I want them to be comfortable, and most people don't understand that.

 

Julie  47:23 

Yeah, absolutely. What do you do if you see an awful you stopped.

 

Hasara Lay  47:26 

This is another one that I know that everyone is really concerned about, I'd love to say, confront the owner and tell them to put their dog on leash. But the first thing you really need to think about is your cat and how you can keep your cat safe and yourself safe. So I'd recommend definitely using your fake spot and putting your cat in that safe spot. So what I personally do is it's taken us about a year to train our cats to do it, but they've learned to Now jump into the backpack when they feel nervous. So they normally see an off leash dog. We do a little bit of a squat and they jumped straight into their backpack. And I think that's a great option. Some of you I know actually pick up your cats and Hold them. If your cat sees you as a safe space and is comfortable being held, I think that's a great option as well. One thing I do do is I'll pick up our cats and I will actually walk to the side of the trail and I'll actually turn them away so they can't see the dog. And yes, they can still smell it. But for some reason, if they don't see the dog, they read our cats react lists, and then the dogs tend to not see us as well, and they'll walks right past but those are the options I use. I know there are so many out there that you can use. But I think if you can, it'd be great to engage with the owners and ask them to leash their dogs. But if it ends up becoming confrontation, I think it's easier for you and safer for you to just walk away as well.

 

Julie  48:36 

Yeah, I agree with that. I don't tend to engage with people. I try to tend to manage the situation on my own. But luckily, I haven't had too many bad experiences. But I did that one like what you said I picked the cat up and I picked Jones up and I turned my back. There's a Great Dane off leash a huge dog and I picked him up and I turned my back and that seemed to really keep him calm. I didn't see the dog and you know, but then I realized the dog was actually friendly and Jones likes dogs. So it wasn't a problem. It's only for this split second where I just have to worry if the dog is, you know, the kind of dog that would chase a cat or tried to hurt a cat, but many of the dogs are not, they're just, you know, easygoing, and probably won't do much, or probably or even nervous, the same cats and would even kind of back away or kind of look but not know, you know, there's only certain dogs I'm really worried about is, you know, the kind of dog that would kill a squirrel or that kind of dog that would go after a small animal. But luckily, we haven't met any of those yet. To be prepared, and certainly, being able to pick up your cat or put them in a backpack is amazing. The stroller, same thing, that safe zone is such a good idea. And be careful though, if your cat doesn't let you pick them up and when they're nervous because they could redirect towards you and bite you. So that's a big thing that people have to look out for. When your pet is nervous, you know, it's not like the one you want. It's like the one you're with, they can be entered in by you. So that's why like a backpack is better than picking them up if they are going to get nervous and stuff.

 

Hasara Lay  50:11 

Yeah, definitely, I think, um, I don't know whether there's any science to this. But knoxy has a thing where if I just bounce up and down while holding her and seeing her name, which makes you sound like a big idiot on the trails, but it seems to calm her down.

 

Julie  50:26 

I don't think anyone's ever done a study on that. Let's get 20 people to jump in with their cats that will like measure their cortisol. I'll make it I'll see if I can find some researchers interested.

 

Hasara Lay  50:44 

That would be amazing study. I'd love to be involved with that. So those are all the questions that we had from you guys, both of us. Julie, thank you so much for joining us for this special q&a. And if you guys have any questions, you know, whatever reach us.

 

Julie  51:01 

Hey, thanks for having me. Thanks for having me on this amazing conversation. It was a lot of fun.

 

Hasara Lay  51:07 

I always learned so much from Julie and I can't wait to hear what you've learned to, or do you have a different answer to the questions we've answered today? Let us know by taking a screenshot of your phone, uploading it to Instagram stories, tagging us at cat explorer community and at cat dot school, and let us know your thoughts. If you love this podcast, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on Apple podcasts. The reviews really do help us continue to make this podcast for you as they help us bring on sponsors and guess when you do leave a review, please let us know. We'll share your review and future episodes and we're going to start sharing them with credit to you on our Instagram, Facebook and so much more. That's it for today. We'll catch you next time and in the meantime, enjoy getting up at the world.